Podcast: Learned Behaviors

FORWARD: Fred is a man with many positive characteristics, but he is also a product of our society--he doesn’t really understand the gender issues or the concepts that he himself says that he stands for. Since he has been taught to suppress his emotions to appear more manly, he is uncomfortable with discussing his feelings. He is aware that his behavior is inappropriate at times, but because he is often not in control of his emotions, he occasionally lashes out. He, like many people in our society, associate sexual violence with malevolence, which makes him unable to recognize that he, too, is part of the problem.

Fictionalized scenario.

COHEN:

I would like to welcome everyone to my podcast, Learned Behaviors. I am Dr. Cohen and today, we are going to be doing something a little different. We are focusing on the media's influence on our emotions and our behaviors.

With the Me Too campaign and the abundance of sexual misconduct allegations coming to light in the media, we would like to bring a male perspective into the mix. We are going to hear the inner workings of the male psyche with our willing and able participant. We are going to learn how he navigates the world and how society has affected him, and see if his experience is the universal male experience.

Without further ado, sitting beside me is Fred Thomas, a resident of New York City, and a software technician. Fred, these were your only identifiers that you wrote down, but tell me and tell our audience, who are you, how else would you describe yourself?

THOMAS:

First, thank you for having me, Dr. It is a pleasure to be here. Yes, that is the description I sent to your producer, but if you’re asking me, I would say I’m a pretty good guy, I’m pretty active, I go to the gym everyday before work, and I talk to my mom every other day on the phone.

COHEN:

Great description, Fred, it reads just like a Tinder bio. We’re happy to have you here. The first question I always ask my guests to get to know them better is what makes you angry? I feel as though this question exposes more about the guest than other questions can.

THOMAS:

Hmm, I’m not too sure. I know I get upset when my asshole coworker steals my ideas and passes them off as his own. Then, I am left in the dust without anything to show my boss. I think I also can get pretty frustrated when I buy a girl a drink at the bar and she either goes back to her friends or she doesn’t respond to my texts within the next few days. It’s pretty clear that she used me to get a free drink if either of those scenarios play out like that. After these things happen, I am in a pretty shitty mood and it changes my behavior... so, yeah I guess that is what one would call anger. Does that help you understand me better?

COHEN:

Yes, Fred, it sounds like you, like many others, fear failure in your professional life and fear rejection in your personal life. And these fears turning into reality may make you angry at times. How do you manage your feelings of anger?

THOMAS:

Well, in those moments, I would like to think that I picked myself up off the ground and kept on moving. But now looking back on it with a greater scope and a greater perspective, I can see that it definitely affected me for longer than I thought. After my coworker was being an asshole, I went to the bar and, as much as I hate to admit this, I did not treat a woman in the manner she deserved. She refused my advances, and I lashed out on her, inappropriately commenting on her appearance.

COHEN:

If you’re comfortable admitting it to us, what did you say?

THOMAS:

I’m ashamed. I know now that my behavior was out of line. I told her, “Why would you wear that revealing top and show that much skin if you didn’t want me to look and touch?” I mean, I’m aware that that was wrong and inappropriate, but that is what came out of my mouth. It was quick and I didn’t even think about it.

COHEN:

You initially thought you had your emotions under control, but clearly your anger was still present underneath the surface. Without even realizing it, you projected it onto an innocent woman later that evening. How long did it take you to realize that you had made an unfair assumption about her?

THOMAS:

Now that you’re pointing it out, I was still angry. I thought that I had dealt with those issues, but I guess they just took a new form.

My female friend standing next to me is the one who told me I was acting like a misogynist and I am not a misogynist. She slapped me on the wrist and told me that this girl’s outfit choice did not warrant my actions. She told me that she wasn’t necessarily asking for anything. When I saw her, I thought that her low-cut top meant she was looking for something. When I was in college, the rules were much different.

COHEN:

In order to understand the root of violence against women in our society, we have to be able to talk about the way that men are taught to handle their emotions. As a child, how were you taught to express yourself?

THOMAS: I’m not sure how I was taught to express myself, but I will say that I played with superheroes and action figures all of the time. I constantly was watching those movies, their characters were strong and brave and I completely idolized them. I don’t know if I learned anything from those action figures or from those movies, what do you think?

COHEN: You definitely learned more than you are aware of. We are taught from a young age, either through Disney films or action figures, that physical appearances equate to specific character traits. As you said, you subconsciously learned that muscles are associated with strength.

On the other side of the coin, girls are taught that a princess’s long hair is associated with her fearfulness.

THOMAS:

But is this a problem? I mean, these messages that we are taught are from the media. It doesn’t affect us later in life because we are able to compartmentalize lessons from our experiences from those from the media.

COHEN: Boys are taught through these films and through the muscular action figures that violence is socially acceptable. Boys are taught from a young age that “boys will be boys,” which is ingrained in everyone’s mind. These boys grow into men who believe that certain negative behaviors are excused because they are just boys being boys. Men are negatively affected by the patriarchy just like women are, just in different ways.

Girls, on the other hand, are taught that being desirable is equated with traits such as fear. While boys are just being boys, girls are taught that they are responsible for their actions, which they later internalize as being responsible if they are sexual assaulted.

THOMAS: I am definitely only benefitting from the patriarchy. How could an institution that has essentially made me, hurt me? The benefits I receive from it are unfair, but there’s nothing I can do about it. It’s just the way that society functions.

COHEN:

But you’re not only benefitting from it. Although, it built you, it’s also limited you. Can you imagine a world in which you can actually discuss your feelings and emotions without being perceived as unmanly. If you talked about your emotions, you may not internalize them and consequently, act violently.

THOMAS:

I don’t act violently. I didn’t force that woman at the bar into anything, so I didn’t technically do anything wrong. I’ve never used any sort of force on a woman. That is just evil. Men who use force with women are scum of the earth. In no situation is using force to get someone to sleep with you okay.

COHEN: I’m glad we can agree on that. But some men think that it is okay to use force when everything that happened prior had been consensual.

THOMAS:

No, violence is never okay. But I mean, I would argue that men in those situations should receive a shorter prison sentence. I mean, their form of rape is different than someone who raped a stranger on the street, right?

COHEN: I happen to disagree. Rape is rape. All sexual encounters must be consensual. You said earlier that when you were in college, the rules were much different. In what way?

THOMAS:

Someone who has the intention to rape is evil, whereas someone in a sticky situation isn’t, right? Well, if someone accused one of my fraternity brothers of sexual assault, we were always quick to defend them. I mean I know these boys and none of them would have ever done anything like that. I am sure of it. Sexual violence is only perpetrated by evil people and none of my friends are evil. But when a girl accused one of my fraternity brothers, the situation was very complicated.

COHEN: You are aware that you are going back on what you were saying earlier, right? There is no difference between college and the real world--if a woman says she was sexually harassed or assaulted, we should believe her no matter the circumstances. There are many different forms of sexual violence.

Do you not believe all of these people who are sharing the Me Too hashtag on social media? With the magnitude of people who are sharing their stories, do you think that all of their perpetrators are evil?

THOMAS:

Of course I believe those women, I was just saying that I know my friends and I know that none of them would do anything like that, just as I would never.

I feel empathy for each of these women and I am happy with the network of support that they are receiving from this campaign, but it still seems very foreign to me.

COHEN: In the story you shared earlier, you were the aggressor. You acted aggressively in that particular situation because you felt rejected, so how can you say you couldn’t imagine other people acting in such a way?

How does it remain foreign to you when you see the numbers of women who have experienced varying degrees of harassment? Even if they haven’t shared their stories, these women are your mother, your sister and your future wife.

In order to fix the problems of sexual violence in our society, we all have to recognize that sexual violence is not a problem that women encounter, it is a problem that men perpetuate.

Thank you for coming, Fred.